Eugene Stoner versus Mikhail Kalashnikov
There are those out there who hold the Kalashnikov in high regard, especially in comparison to the US M16/M4. The myth of Kalashnikov superiority is anything but a myth. It is in fact a very crappy weapon – for various reasons that I will discuss later. The belief that the M16/M4 is an expensive but fragile weapon is also an unfound myth. It is true that Kalashnikov (the inventor, not the weapon) was an able weapon designer, but he was not superior to Eugene Stoner (the father of the M16/M4). Kalashnikov designed a weapon for an ill-trained conscripted army. For that purpose, the AK47 was and is a superb weapon. Stoner designed a weapon for a professional army. Any professional soldier would prefer the M16/M4 family over the Kalashnikovs.
Let take a look at professional armies across the globe. The British Army service rifle is the S-80, but their elite Special Air Service (SAS) used the US M4. The Australian service rifle is the Steyr AUG, but their SAS also used the M4. The Israel Defense Force various special units also use the M4. Most Western Special Operation Forces used M4.
Having handled both an M16 and AK47, I understand why the M16 is a better weapon. My favorite feature of the M16/M4 is the functionality. It is more functional than any weapon out there. I will ignore accuracy because it is an accepted fact that an M16/M4 is far more accurate than an AK47.
(1) First, the fire selector is conveniently located above the pistol grip. Shooter can switch from safe to semi and back almost immediately with his thumb. In a place like Iraq, the ability to put a weapon in action quickly is highly prized.
(2) Second, the iron sight is natural. The rear sight is closer to the shooter eye. The smaller hole in the rear sight allows accurate firing at long range. The larger hole in the rear sight allows quick reflexive shooting at close range.
(3) Third, the weapon can put back in action quickly went the last round is fire. When the last round is fire, the bolt is held at the rear. The magazine release is conveniently located above at the magazine well, next to the shooter supporting hand (I hold my weapon at the magazine well). One press by the thumb and the magazine fall off by itself. Grab a full magazine, put it in the magazine well, press the bolt release, and the weapon is ready for action. The sequence just described can be done in a second. And this is done without the shooter having to take his eye off the weapon sight or his firing hand off the pistol grip.
How does the AK47 function compare to the M16/M4 family.
(1) First, the fire selector is located on the right, below the ejector port. One has to take his hand off from pistol grip, locates the selector switch, the turn it to auto. Yes, the AK setting is safe to auto then to semi – only untrained conscript fire his weapon on auto. It is inaccurate and wasted a whole lot of ammo. The shooter then has to put his hand back into the pistol grip to fire. The lost time in getting the weapon in action is the different between shooting the opponent and getting shot by the opponent.
(2) The sight on the AK47 sucks. The rear sight is far away from the shooting eye and is not very natural. Furthermore, one cannot switch between distance shooting and reflexive shooting.
(3) Now if one run out of ammo on an AK47, one better finds a good cover to hide for a few minutes; because that is how long it takes to reload the weapon. The magazine released is behind the magazine. One has to press the level; and at the same time one has to physically pull the magazine out. Reload a fresh magazine take as long, because one has to rock the magazine in place. Then one has to take one right hand off the pistol grip and physically charge the weapon with the charging handle on the right side below the ejector port, since the bold does not stay at the rear after the last shot. Reload an AK47’s magazine requires three extra motions and five times longer compare to the M16 or M4.
The only advantage the AK47 has over the M16/M4 is reliability. This only matter if a soldier does not maintain his weapon. And the advantage is only slight. The M16/M4 is not as fragile or sensitive as some believed. For the whole year in Iraq, my issued M16 never malfunctioned. And I had an old wore out National Guard M16. With a proper cleaning, an M16 will last for two to three days. I did not clean my weapon everyday. I cleaned it every other day. Every time, I left the base, I test-fired it. And we went to the range quite often. And the faithful M16 never let me down. And the AK47 is not as robust as some claimed. I have seen AK47 jammed because the owner (an Iraqi National Guard soldier) did not clean it. Even the AK47 needs cleaning.
Therefore I am glad that the US Army discontinued the XM8 program intends to replace the M16/M4. The XM8 is not better than the current service rifle. It is lighter and more reliable, but it still lacks many functions that make the M16/M4 my favorite weapon. Reloading magazine is still slower on the XM8 than the M16/M4. The XM8 bolt does not stay to the rear at the last shot. And the magazine release button is as clumsy as the AK47.
The US Army should stay with the M16/M4, however make more M4. I wish I had an M4 instead of an M16. It is shorter and is better to fire in confined space. With a few improvements, the M4 would be a perfect weapon. If the magazine well mouth is flare, like the H&K UMP, it would speed up reloading under combat stress. And perhaps it is time we go for better round, like the 6.8mm SPC or the 6.5mm Grendel. Currently, I am in favor of the 6.8mm SPC because the round fits in the current M16/M4 magazine. And switching to a 6.8 SPC is much cheaper than developing a new rifle. All we need to manufacture is the upper receiver.
Let take a look at professional armies across the globe. The British Army service rifle is the S-80, but their elite Special Air Service (SAS) used the US M4. The Australian service rifle is the Steyr AUG, but their SAS also used the M4. The Israel Defense Force various special units also use the M4. Most Western Special Operation Forces used M4.
Having handled both an M16 and AK47, I understand why the M16 is a better weapon. My favorite feature of the M16/M4 is the functionality. It is more functional than any weapon out there. I will ignore accuracy because it is an accepted fact that an M16/M4 is far more accurate than an AK47.
(1) First, the fire selector is conveniently located above the pistol grip. Shooter can switch from safe to semi and back almost immediately with his thumb. In a place like Iraq, the ability to put a weapon in action quickly is highly prized.
(2) Second, the iron sight is natural. The rear sight is closer to the shooter eye. The smaller hole in the rear sight allows accurate firing at long range. The larger hole in the rear sight allows quick reflexive shooting at close range.
(3) Third, the weapon can put back in action quickly went the last round is fire. When the last round is fire, the bolt is held at the rear. The magazine release is conveniently located above at the magazine well, next to the shooter supporting hand (I hold my weapon at the magazine well). One press by the thumb and the magazine fall off by itself. Grab a full magazine, put it in the magazine well, press the bolt release, and the weapon is ready for action. The sequence just described can be done in a second. And this is done without the shooter having to take his eye off the weapon sight or his firing hand off the pistol grip.
How does the AK47 function compare to the M16/M4 family.
(1) First, the fire selector is located on the right, below the ejector port. One has to take his hand off from pistol grip, locates the selector switch, the turn it to auto. Yes, the AK setting is safe to auto then to semi – only untrained conscript fire his weapon on auto. It is inaccurate and wasted a whole lot of ammo. The shooter then has to put his hand back into the pistol grip to fire. The lost time in getting the weapon in action is the different between shooting the opponent and getting shot by the opponent.
(2) The sight on the AK47 sucks. The rear sight is far away from the shooting eye and is not very natural. Furthermore, one cannot switch between distance shooting and reflexive shooting.
(3) Now if one run out of ammo on an AK47, one better finds a good cover to hide for a few minutes; because that is how long it takes to reload the weapon. The magazine released is behind the magazine. One has to press the level; and at the same time one has to physically pull the magazine out. Reload a fresh magazine take as long, because one has to rock the magazine in place. Then one has to take one right hand off the pistol grip and physically charge the weapon with the charging handle on the right side below the ejector port, since the bold does not stay at the rear after the last shot. Reload an AK47’s magazine requires three extra motions and five times longer compare to the M16 or M4.
The only advantage the AK47 has over the M16/M4 is reliability. This only matter if a soldier does not maintain his weapon. And the advantage is only slight. The M16/M4 is not as fragile or sensitive as some believed. For the whole year in Iraq, my issued M16 never malfunctioned. And I had an old wore out National Guard M16. With a proper cleaning, an M16 will last for two to three days. I did not clean my weapon everyday. I cleaned it every other day. Every time, I left the base, I test-fired it. And we went to the range quite often. And the faithful M16 never let me down. And the AK47 is not as robust as some claimed. I have seen AK47 jammed because the owner (an Iraqi National Guard soldier) did not clean it. Even the AK47 needs cleaning.
Therefore I am glad that the US Army discontinued the XM8 program intends to replace the M16/M4. The XM8 is not better than the current service rifle. It is lighter and more reliable, but it still lacks many functions that make the M16/M4 my favorite weapon. Reloading magazine is still slower on the XM8 than the M16/M4. The XM8 bolt does not stay to the rear at the last shot. And the magazine release button is as clumsy as the AK47.
The US Army should stay with the M16/M4, however make more M4. I wish I had an M4 instead of an M16. It is shorter and is better to fire in confined space. With a few improvements, the M4 would be a perfect weapon. If the magazine well mouth is flare, like the H&K UMP, it would speed up reloading under combat stress. And perhaps it is time we go for better round, like the 6.8mm SPC or the 6.5mm Grendel. Currently, I am in favor of the 6.8mm SPC because the round fits in the current M16/M4 magazine. And switching to a 6.8 SPC is much cheaper than developing a new rifle. All we need to manufacture is the upper receiver.

71 Comments:
Quick question, talking about the rounds rather than the weapon now: You mentioned the 6.5 & 6.8mm rounds. What do you think about the current 5.56mm round? Do you consider it underpowered? I remember reading in Mark Bowden's book Blackhawk Down that the Rangers and Delta soldiers were basically aggravated by the lack of stopping power of that round. I also remember reading an anonymous soldier in one of the big 3 newsmags (Time, Newsweek, or US News... don't remember which) basically echoing that remark. Seems to me that you're in favor of improving the round that weapon uses. Since you've actually used the weapon, I'm curious as to what your opinion is. I'm contrasting those complaints against the 5.56 round with the testimony from soldiers in the book "We Were Soldiers Once, and Young" who were basically pleased with the round's power. Not having shot the weapon, I have no idea which view carries more credence.
"All we need to manufacture is the upper receiver."
barrett is already doing it.
http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifles.htm#m468
the army just needs to adopt it
ElMondoHummus,
Terrorists in Iraq take drug to loosen their inhibition. One need a few shots with a 5.56 to take down a drug-crazed Jihadi. That is why we were trained to double-tap. And sometime, you have to shoot through cover like mud-wall or car, and the 5.56 is underpowered.
I never shot a 6.8, just read and heard about it - good thing. Some SF teams were given a 6.8 or two to evaluate. A friend of mine, a SF weapon sergeant, love the 6.8. But he hates that in less than a month, he ran out of ammo - and there was no resupply thereafter. So they went back to the 5.56 M4.
Great post.
Informative and interesting!
Thanks.
And thanks for your service to our country!!! :)
Reloading an AK sounds a bit like trying to re-load a CA-neutered Fab-10! Recent magazine-stand edition of Guns&Ammo's "Book of the AR-15; America's Rifle" speaks of cartridge variations, and also an improved Mk 262 load based on the Black Hills match ammunition with a 77gr Sierra Match King at Nato 5.56 (instead of .223) pressures.
Anyhow, thanks very much for the comparison!
Ergonomics aside, from personal experience I would choose the sorriest AK over the best M15 variant any day. I've never personally seen an AK malfunction, but as an armorer for years, I saw literally thousands of M16 malfunctions. I carried an M16 into Desert Storm, but got myself an AK as fast as I could, because the M16 wouldn't even function reliably when clean in that environment.
I like the bolt and carrier arangement of the AK better. An AK-based rifle with an AR mag adapter, bolt catch, and peep sights would be the best imho.
Robinson Armament's (www.robarm.com) XCR is just what I'm talking about. It's guts are like a Sig 550 but it takes AR mags and weighs roughly the same as an AR.
I trained with an M14, qualed expert and loved it. It was a little heavy on the long humps and I would have liked a mag with more rounds but it is an excellent weapon.
The M16 I was issued to kill people with, was a piece of junk. We sent them back as fast as they were sent to us. Then they said they fixed them. So much bullshit. Even when the weapon was either brand new or just cleaned (and yes, we knew all the "tricks" to cleaning them), they still couldn't be depended on to keep you alive. I carried a 45 that I "appropiated" and like others, in our unit (LLRP) we kept every AK we came across. We had problems getting ammo until a nearby Engineering unit found a tunnel full of it.
The other part about no stopping power for the M16, I can not address personally, as I never shot anyone with it. But I did with an AK and it is sweet and deadly. I wouldn't want to shoot at anything over 200m with it but inside that, you hit what you aimed at.
It carried well, even through the bush and you don't have to worry about keeping it spotless. As far as reloading, We didn't have any problems, it was just a matter of practice, which we did a lot of (after we had an almost endless supply of ammo.)
But I would say that the little round that the M14 shoots wouldn't go thru much, and is worthless in the bush as almost anything deflects or stops it.
Funny how the most powerful army in the world can't get a good weapon for their grunts.
Funny? No, Disgracful, Yes.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
I used the M16A1 for a long time during my national service when I was an basic training instructor and during my reservist stints for the next ten years. Excellent weapon. Accurate and light. I can't complain.
Papa Ray, the Aust Army used 7.62 SNATO FN SLR in V'nam and found it excellent at foliage penetration and one-shot take downs.. the VC were aware of this wpn and refered to it as the elephant gun.. While V'nam predates me somewhat, I have seen graphic footage of the differene in stopping power, where in one instance, a full burst of 5.56 (m16) eventually killed a running EN, but he landed face fwd after covering at least 10m.. in comparison, one shot from the SLR will always take bad guy down, anywhere on the body.
Many was the Australian soldier in VietNam who on returning to base from his first operation gave his M16 back to the quartermaster and demanded a 7.62 mm SLR in return. And remember, Australian soldiers, unlike their American counterparts, were taught and expected to maintain their weapons in the field. The M16 was only liked by base wallars (OK REMFs) because it was easier than the SLR to lug around.
5.56mm ammo is shit. No other comment is necessary
There are pros and cons to both rifles. The M16 family uses a bolt that locks in to the actual barrel making this rifle extremly accurate at ranges to 500 meters with military issue ammo. However the M16's gas system blows its nasty deposits right back in to the chamber making it a very dirty weapon.
The AK has a clean gas system that is very dependable but the bolt locks in to a trunnion riveted in a sheet metal receiver. When fired the receiver flex is exteme and accuracy is effected. The AK47 can dependable engage human size targets out to 300 meters in properly trained hands but does its best work a little closer.
The AK round is more powerfull and its shear mass gives it a stopping power advantage.
The real trick is to build a rifle that uses the M16 bolt lockup and the AK47 gas system. Oh wait Its called a STONER!!!!
The system was introduced in 1963 during Stoner's time at Cadillac Gage, which manufactured the weapon until 1971.
The Stoner 63 was produced in several configurations, which had limited parts commonality. These variants included a carbine, a rifle, and various light machine guns feeding linked ammunition from the left, right or top. The gas system was mounted in different positions depending on the weapon's configuration. The guns were complex and required high levels of maintenance to operate reliably, especially in the humid jungles of Vietnam where they made their debut. However, the Navy SEALs who carried them into combat did their part, and showed that the Stoner 63 could be a very effective weapon.
In 1963, the Stoner 63 was sent to the US Marines for evaluation, where it made a positive impression with its light weight and high ammunition capacity. The Marines tested the gun for six months and submitted recommendations for improvements to the design—these included a stainless steel gas tube, a two-position fire selector with separate safety, ejection port dust covers and modifications to the belt feed mechanism. The upgrades were built into the Stoner 63A, which began production in 1966.
During 1967, the Stoner 63A system was field tested by Company L (Lima Company), 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division. Riflemen were issued the weapon in the rifle configuration, while officers and certain other personnel received the carbine. The automatic rifle configuration was deployed on a limited basis in the squad automatic role, while Lima's weapons platoon received both the LMG and MMG configurations.
In 1970, the US Army designated the Commando configuration XM207 and deployed it to select Army Special Forces units for evaluation. However, due to its complexity and high maintenance requirements (especially when compared to the new Colt M16), the design was rejected, and the project was dropped in 1971. Around 4,000 63 and 63A units were built in total. Most of them continued to see use aboard US Navy ships, under the designation Mk 23 Mod 0. However, by the late 1980s the Stoner 63 was completely phased out in favor of the new M249 SAW, and most of the remaining guns were destroyed. Today, surviving models number in the dozens.
A lasting contribution of the 63 project is the ammunition link used in the belt-fed variants - it was later modified to become the M27 link used in modern 5.56 mm machine guns like the M249. Robinson Armament Co. also produces the semi-automatic M96 Expeditionary Weapon System, which is technically different, but looks like and has some of the features and configurations of the Stoner system.
www.gunsmithusa.com
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There is currently an upper for the AR that uses a gas piston--POF's GTC (gas trap carbine).
My AR had problems with fragile mags and extractor springs giving a failure to extract, a few weak ejector issues, and a general pain in the butt to clean all that burned carbon being crapped right back into the bolt face.
Ergonomics are great, fantastic accuracy (makes sense, the 223/556 is a glorified varmit round in military clothing) its lightweight, which the girls love, and the magazine well is nice (but the AK mag changes don't take long to get down, little bit of training an you're good). Neither are perfect, and although the AR feels better, if I'm betting my life on it, I'd take the AK.
You are about an idiot. The solid M14 is way better than that jamming hunk of junk of the M4. It fires far better and kills more than the M4. I used to keep my M4 spotless, but a GD speck of dirt would jam it. Once I got my M14 (in 2006), I was doubtfully as it is old as dirt, but damn, it performs. It also does not rattle around like a kid toy (nor feel like one). I have found out that the place that made it is closed (Springfield Armory of Massachusettes, not the company "INC- of Illinois who makes cheap copies of old guns" but the National Armory) and this is a shame. Ding-Dongs like Stoner will continue to sell arms without consideration to soldiers unlike a National Armoury who sole purpose to defend a nation and save the lives of soldiers.
I forgot to add that Eugene Stoner was a failed aircraft designer who sold his aluminum attempts to the Department of Defense. Heck, his failed weapon lacked a forward charging handle. A proper weapon would not need one. Bad Design, yet again.
The Iraqi Army is asking the US to provide them with M-16/M-4s.
The 5.56mm round turns sideways and fragments at velocity greater than 2500 feet per second. That makes a baseball sized permanent cavity. The M-4 has enough velocity for that out to 150 meters. The M-16 has enough velocity for that at 250 meters.
The AK-47 doesnt get to 2500 feet per second at the muzzle. Its bullet is light for caliber, and loses velocity quickly. The bullet tumbles, and then flies tail end first. Teddy Roosevelt pointed out that faced with the 7x57 Mauser round (140 grain bullets) in Cuba, that unless hit in brain, heart, or spine, that soldiers got better amazingly quickly. The KragJorgensen used .30 caliber 180 grain bullets that performed similarly.
In response to that, the US went to the .30/06 round that had 2600 feet per second (with WWI era 174 grain bullets) for higher lethality. The WWII round went to 2800 feet per second with 150 grain bullets to solve the training problem of rounds flying far beyond the limits of contemporary ranges.
The .30/06 (and its later incarnation the 7.62x51) was designed to permit hitting and stopping one exposed enemy soldier with one bullet. Based on German experience that targets were only briefly exposed, the M1943 round of the AK-47 was designed to permit firing multiple rounds at a briefly exposed target to improve the probability of a hit. The M-193 5.56 round is designed to permit a soldier to shoot at suspected enemy locations, thus giving the US soldier the inestimable advantage of the first shot against a concealed enemy. The M-855 version (aka S109) of the 5.56mm x 45 round was designed with a heavier bullet for greater range and penetration. Its disadvantage is slightly higher recoil, slightly heavier weight, and slightly slower muzzle velocity. It has about 50 meters less range where the impact velocity is greater than 2500 feet per second.
Life is biological. Unless you hit the central nervous system (rather a slim target) your enemy will be able to respond in lethal fashion until he bleeds out, from 16 seconds to forever. Multiple rounds to the upper torso are a prudent way to engage, no matter what your shooting. The greatest probability of stop would be from a 12 gauge shotgun firing number 1 buckshot. With 3 inch magnums that puts 25 each .30 caliber rounds, with each having the ability to penetrate all the way through your enemy. That is 25 chances to cut a notch in his central nervous system.
Just to put the M-14 lovers on notice: The worst jam I ever experienced was in my M-14. The firing pin came out, bounced off the back of the receiver, and stabbed between the hammer hooks into the trigger mechanism.
The M-16 suffered from Army Ordinance jealousy, which issued the M-16 without the chamber being chrome plated, with no cleaning kits, and used cheap, dirty and abrupt ball powder rather than the gentle and clean burning grain powder for which it was designed. The gas system, barrel, (thickness, gas port, rifling, and flash suppressor) of the M-16A2 was completely reworked.
Could it be better? Sure, but it is loads better than the M-14, or AK-47.
This talk of needing to keep M16's totally clean is exadurated. I have shot thousands of rounds out of mine with no cleaning for 1 full year back when I was believing the hype. With a quality M16/Ar type and military contract grade ammo/mags. It has never failed me. I have abused the hell out of it. Infact I tried to make it fail with dirt, water.
As for this whole "Blackhawk down" problems with "lack of stopping power". You need to understand what makes 5.56 damaging. Speed. M4 can only keep the threshold for fragmentation for about 20m (yes twenty) with a 62 grain ss-109. ALSO if the steel penetrator in a ss109 is not balanced it causes the round not to yaw correctly if at all (This the pencil hole wounds).
I prefer the 55 grain M193 or as they were called "shredders". These nasty little rounds were abandoned for ss109 because of their inhumain wound profiles that conflicted with world military laws.
These M193 are faster, hold the fragmenting threshold longer, and fragment much more. They even have more penetration in short/med ranges.
I also advise to stick with a 16inch barrel instead of 14.5
Better for your gas system as the 14.5 tends to run at higher pressures due to the short length. 16 will also have further threshold for fragmentation speed which is roughly 2700 fps.
Also please stop compairing the "Nam" era m16. Meterials in the barrel along with it now being an HBAR, alloys for the reciever, gas design improvements put it in another class. NOT TO MENTION OUR GOV issued m16's using the WRONG POWDER in the ammo causing the rifles to cycly way too fast and foul up bad. Also the Gov didn't think our Soldiers were worth the option of Chrome lined barrels. Many M16 in nam rusted before any shots were fired.
The M-16 definitely outperforms the AK-47 on many levels. However, it can jam. I understand a German firm has designed an updated HK-416-7 that greatly reduces the possibility of jamming and increases accuracy of the base M4/M-16 design. In addition, a technological development prevents carbon fouling and hot gasses from returning to the inside of the gun. This greatly increases the performance over the original M-16. Personally, I hope new technology will be allowed to improve a good design.
John K
I 100% agree with this article. I am not a soldier nor have I seen combat. However I am a gun nut and have fired and owned many rifles including the AK47 (semi only) and the AR15 (both semi and auto).
I can easily say that the AR15 is w/o a doubt better. I have never had a malfunction any of my AR15's nor has anyone I know. I used to own an AK47, the truth is it truly is a big, heavy piece made to fire bullets. That is all it is, a weapon for conscripts to fight. Needless to say I dumped it. I have now owned a total of 4 ARs and built 2 myself.
I don't believe there is a problem with the 5.56. I believe the problem is so many of our enemies enjoy to be on drugs that kill pain and/or give them "courage". The Somalis, Afghanis, and Vietnamese all did this.
My cousin who served in Vietnam with an M14, his favorite weapon I believe is the AR15. Although he does of course hold the M14 in high esteem, for it did save his life on many occasions but he does always grabs his AR when goes to the shooting range.
The M16 is pretty reliable if well maintained but the shorter M4 suffers problems if used in rapid fire (rapid follow up shots or automatic bursts. The increased amount of gas enter the receiver increases the breakage of critical parts like the extraction spring and bolt lug. Also the shorter gas system of the M4 makes extraction more difficult and the short barrel rapidly overheats. I beleive that the army should develop a carbine similar to the M4 in operation but instead use a short stroke piston operation, a cold hammer forged barrel and be chambered for the 6.8 SPC round.
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